John
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:34 pm
 Subject: I'm guessing it's an electrical issue.. [starter relay / solenoid / ??]

Bike: 2002 EX250, ~14k miles

Status: Been sitting for the last 5 months or so, including being snowed on a few times

Summary: Turning the key lights up the dash, but pressing the starter button results in nothing, not even a click from the starter relay. Shorting between the leads on the starter relay (+bat term lead to starter motor lead) causes the starter motor to spring to life. Stuck there.

Diagnostics:
Battery is at 12.55v when just hanging out.
Battery is at 12.11v when the key is turned to the "on" position
Battery stays at 12.11v when the starter button is pressed - no changes
30A fuse in starter relay passes the multimeter continuity test

Testing between the primary starter relay leads (+bat term lead to starter motor lead) reveals:
12.5v normally
12.1v when key turned to "on" position
12.1v when starter button pressed
(same results as testing the battery directly)

Further tests:
I've swapped the battery with another, also showing around 12.5v, no change.
I've swapped the starter relay (the starter solenoid & the mounted plastic piece holding the fuse, not the wires), no change.


Some other things I've been doing today:
- working all the lockout switches (physically moving them, etc - no change)
- continue to review Wes' wiring diagrams
- test for voltage drop when I press the starter button (there was no change)
- reviewing: http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?p=169084
- whatever else I come across from reading the threads I'm reading
- Figure out what the heck 3/4/5/6 are on the attached photo. 3/4 have continuity, as do 5/6. The leads that the fuse plugs into do not, although the fuse itself tests fine. The connecting unit that sits over the fuse and the 3/4/5/6 connectors does not have any kind of connecter that I can see that would conduct via #6. They do exist for 3/4/5.
- examine ground connections per Wes

More potential ideas:
- Maybe see if I can trickle charge the battery closer up to 13v? Not sure it would make that much of a difference, as I got a strong response from the starter when I shorted across the relay leads.
- If I can push start it, does that tell me anything? Haven't tried that yet.
- I've not tried kicking the bike in frustration yet, that sometimes yields results. I can also escalate to cursing if need be.

Any clue on what those unidentified connectors are on the photo I posted? I've been reading back posts trying to find out what the heck the starter relay really is. Is it just the little plastic piece that the 30A fuse sits in, with the 4 unidentified connectors and the two connectors that attach to the main leads coming out of the solenoid (which each connect to the +battery terminal and the starter motor)? The service manual seems to indicate it's both. I'm guessing those 4 UI connectors are the two relays that control the activation of the solenoid, allowing completion of the circuit between the +bat terminal and the starter motor? I guess one goes Y/G to the clutch switch, and the other Y/R to the headlight relay?




I'm hoping to avoid taking the starter button assembly apart if I can. Wondering what else I can test/prove out beforehand. It looks to my uneducated eye that either there's a problem with one or more of:
- starter solenoid: could be bad - not sure how to easily test this to get it clicking
- starter relay: could be bad - I have continuity between 3/4 and 5/6 on my photo, as well as over the 30A fuse.
- wiring problem upstream of starter relay: If the relay isn't getting the juice, it can't act as a switch to connect the battery and the starter motor via the starter solenoid


I'm open to more ideas, if anyone has any. Hopefully I can make it to Deal's Gap without having to use a screwdriver to start my bike via shorting across the starter relay all 550 miles down the road..

starter_relay_labeled.jpg
rats4ever
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 6:07 pm
 Subject: Have you checked the starter button itself?

If shorting to the starter motor makes it work, the starter's fine and the battery's fine. Swapping out the solenoid didn't change anything. The only info you gave about the button itself is that pushing it doesn't make the voltage flicker at all. Sounds like the button (or something in its path) just isn't connecting.

Hope it's that easy, anyway.

-Matt
Anna Dad
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:35 pm
 Subject: Some thoughts on the starter circuit

My daughter has a '07 Ninja 250, so some of the following may not be exactly correct for your '02, that said here's what I've discovered regarding the start and ignition circuit.

The starter solenoid coil is powered by the start relay, which in turn is enabled by the starter button switch, the clutch lever interlock switch, and depending on the clutch lever position the gear selector interlock switch.
Additionally, the ignition module (responsible for spark at the sparkplugs) is also enabled by the same clutch lever, and gear selector interlock switches, with the addition of the side stand interlock switch.

As all three of these interlock switches connect at various times the same Green/Black wire from the ignition module to ground, perhaps a simple trouble-shooting method would be to temporarily connect this Green/Black wire to ground, effectively by-passing any faulty interlock switches. A word of caution here, I have not attempted this trouble-shooting method (as the need has not yet come up), everything I've described here can be verified by studying the existing wiring schematics available in the FAQ's.

That Starter Circuit schematic from M Mills seems like it would be helpful, if you like I can provide a similar schematic with additional information.

As to the connectors on the starter solenoid:
Two of the connectors on the starter solenoid are the leads to energize the solenoid coil (they should have continuity with very little resistance across them), one wire would be the connection to chassis ground (Black/Yellow), the other wire would be the connection to the 10-wire connector going into the Junction Box (Yellow/Red).
One of the remaining connectors on the starter solenoid is the 30-amp fuse wire that provides power through out the motorcycle (Black) connecting to the Regulator/Rectifier, Junction Box, and the Ignition Switch (should have continuity with no resistance to one side of the 30-amp fuse connection).
The last connector on the starter solenoid seems unnecessary as the wiring schematics indicate just 5 connections to the starter solenoid. You've indicated that both pairs of connectors have continuity, perhaps this connector is an unused 30-amp fused connection.

Hopefully some of this information is useful. Have fun.
John
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:02 pm
 Subject: No, not yet. Trying to avoid taking that assembly apart if I can

rats4ever wrote:
If shorting to the starter motor makes it work, the starter's fine and the battery's fine. Swapping out the solenoid didn't change anything. The only info you gave about the button itself is that pushing it doesn't make the voltage flicker at all. Sounds like the button (or something in its path) just isn't connecting.


Agreed, that may be the case.

I think I'm comfortable declaring the starter and the battery innocent, although the battery could be a little better off than 12.5v.

I've also pretty released on their own recognizance:
- starter relay - leads (they pass the continuity test)
- starter relay - terminals (can short across them)
- starter relay - main 30A fuse (passes continuity test)

The following are still suspects in the case:
- starter relay - solenoid (have yet to hear anything in his defense, not even clicking)
- controls - starter button (lack of voltage drop when thumbed is some damning evidence)
- wiring - wiring from starter button to starter relay (possible culprit)
- ??? - others I don't have the knowledge or information to identify yet - looking for more ideas here


I've found some instructions for proving out a solenoid that basically involve connecting the starter relay leads to a 12V battery, then listening to hear if the solenoid starts clicking, while using a multimeter to see if continuity becomes established between the starter relay terminals (the ones that normally go to the +battery terminal and the starter motor). The idea being that lighting up the relay leads should start the solenoid up, which should complete the circuit between the leads. I need to go to Radio Shack or somewhere to get jumpers small enough to clamp onto those little leads, though.

That then leaves the starter button and the wiring.. and whatever else I may be missing.
Wes
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:03 pm
 Subject: Here's an interesting way to check half the circuit, including the button

You might also need to consult the headlight circuit diagram I drew 5 or so years ago as well to get this.

Here's the idea: generate an alternator pulse somehow with the bike turned "on". How to generate the pulse? Easiest way is probably to try and bump start the bike.

If you can get the alternator to pulse, the headlight should come on, and stay on until you cut main power.

How is this significant? Look at the headlight cct diagram: IIRC, the headlight is grounded through the starter relay's coil, unless the starter button is pushed (and the diode isn't blown).

If you can get the headlight on and the starter button does not turn it off, you can work on THAT problem which will probably solve your overall problem more quickly. Similarly, if the headlight DOES turn off, you can scratch all the components necessary for that to occur off your diagnostic chart.

Oh -- in case it's not obvious, a relay's coil is also effectively a very low value resistor (aka a super long wire).



Wes
John
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:05 pm
 Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the starter circuit

Anna Dad wrote:

As to the connectors on the starter solenoid:
Two of the connectors on the starter solenoid are the leads to energize the solenoid coil (they should have continuity with very little resistance across them), one wire would be the connection to chassis ground (Black/Yellow), the other wire would be the connection to the 10-wire connector going into the Junction Box (Yellow/Red).
One of the remaining connectors on the starter solenoid is the 30-amp fuse wire that provides power through out the motorcycle (Black) connecting to the Regulator/Rectifier, Junction Box, and the Ignition Switch (should have continuity with no resistance to one side of the 30-amp fuse connection).
The last connector on the starter solenoid seems unnecessary as the wiring schematics indicate just 5 connections to the starter solenoid. You've indicated that both pairs of connectors have continuity, perhaps this connector is an unused 30-amp fused connection.

Hopefully some of this information is useful. Have fun.


Thanks, I appreciate your reply. I still wonder why there is continuity through both pairs of those starter relay leads when it looks like only 3 of the 4 are actually used..
Wes
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:05 pm
 Subject: While you're out getting alligator clips -- buy a test light

Note that the little wires on those little things aren't meant for carrying starter-circuit current. They'll get hot. if they burn the insulation, don't panic, just cut power to the bike (with the key) before they touch the frame and blow a fuse.

Wes
John
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:10 pm
 Subject: I was going to do it at my desk, not on the bike. Bad idea?

I figure if I set the starter relay down on my desk, connect it up to the battery, and test that way, there's nothing else that could possibly interfere or be a reason why the solenoid wouldn't start clicking, other than if it just isn't working. No?
Also planning to use the multimeter to see if the starter relay terminals are in a completed circuit when the leads have the battery providing them power (and hopefully letting the solenoid get its groove on). That way I can vet if the circuit is complete and there's just a mechanical failure, like something being stuck and if I need to whack the solenoid a few times with something.

Thoughts?
Anna Dad
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:15 pm
 Subject: Re: Some thoughts on the starter circuit

I think if you use an ohm meter to measure across the pairs of connectors, you'll find that one pair will have some resistance, "Oh -- in case it's not obvious, a relay's coil is also effectively a very low value resistor (aka a super long wire). ". That pair would for be the coil.
John
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:16 pm
 Subject: Re: Here's an interesting way to check half the circuit, including the butto

Wes wrote:
You might also need to consult the headlight circuit diagram I drew 5 or so years ago as well to get this.

Here's the idea: generate an alternator pulse somehow with the bike turned "on". How to generate the pulse? Easiest way is probably to try and bump start the bike.

If you can get the alternator to pulse, the headlight should come on, and stay on until you cut main power.

How is this significant? Look at the headlight cct diagram: IIRC, the headlight is grounded through the starter relay's coil, unless the starter button is pushed (and the diode isn't blown).

If you can get the headlight on and the starter button does not turn it off, you can work on THAT problem which will probably solve your overall problem more quickly. Similarly, if the headlight DOES turn off, you can scratch all the components necessary for that to occur off your diagnostic chart.

Oh -- in case it's not obvious, a relay's coil is also effectively a very low value resistor (aka a super long wire).



Wes


Thanks, Wes. I was hoping you were going to reply.


So I'm reading that as:

1. Try and bump start the bike
2. If it starts, verify the headlight comes on
3. If the headlight comes on, press the starter button

- If the headlight goes off when the starter button is pressed - no need to test related components (not sure which these are but I'm guessing I'll figure it out via studying the wiring diagram)

- If the headlight stays on when the starter button is pressed - ?


As a side note, I don't think I've ever thumbed the starter button when the bike was already running and the headlight was on. You're saying that this will turn the headlight off? For the time that the starter button is pressed in, anyway? Interesting way to be able to flash your lights!
Anna Dad
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 8:35 pm
 Subject: Have you?

Have you tried reading the voltage at the starter solenoid connector (wire harness side), between the Black/Yellow and the Yellow/Red (starter button switch circuit). Of course you'll need to put the battery back in the bike, and don't forget the 30-amp fuse. Also can you line-up the connectors to determine which pair on the solenoid are for the coil?
John
Post Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 10:05 pm
 Subject: Re: Have you?

Anna Dad wrote:
Have you tried reading the voltage at the starter solenoid connector (wire harness side), between the Black/Yellow and the Yellow/Red (starter button switch circuit). Of course you'll need to put the battery back in the bike, and don't forget the 30-amp fuse. Also can you line-up the connectors to determine which pair on the solenoid are for the coil?


OK, tested that out.. referring to the numbering I have on the photo - between 5/6 (leads closest to the fuse), I get .5 ohms, between 3/4 (leads closest to the primary terminals [where the connections to the battery/starter motor bolt to]), it jumps all over the place if I move in the slightest, but seems to settle on around 6-7 ohms if I can keep perfectly still. So we think that 3/4 (closest to terminal) are for the coil? And that 5 (closest to fuse on the starter motor side) is for the fuse wire?

starter_relay_labeled.jpg
Wes
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:44 am
 Subject: Re: Here's an interesting way to check half the circuit, including the butto

Actaully, I hadn't considered that bike would start. If it does, stall it out with the brakes.

When you have the headlight on and thumb the starter, the headlight should go out -- if everything is working for that part of the circuit. Follow the circuit, you'll see that suddenly the headlight relay's ground goes away (IIRC) which causes it to unlatch. (pretty tired right now so specifics may be off).

You're right, thumbing the starter might be a good way to wink your headlight when the engine is running. It can't be great for the starter clutch, though.

Wes
Wes
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:49 am
 Subject: Re: Have you?

Please document what colour wires hooked up to 3,4,5,6.

Also, connect your ohmmeter leads together, make sure it reads zero. It's possible your 0.5ohm reading is really a dead short.

Do not assume that all pins are in use.

6-7 ohms is possibly a solenoid coil, but frankly a little low for my expectations. Double check with the schematic and those colours I asked for. Smile

Wes
teknokruncher
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 10:18 am
 Subject: update on what wires 3-6 are :)

3 - red/yellow
4 - green/black
5 - white (bigger than others maybe 12 gauge?)
6 - nothing

i just checked for john

emily
John
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:52 am
 Subject: Here's the info, plus a photo of what I just tested

Wes wrote:
Please document what colour wires hooked up to 3,4,5,6.

Also, connect your ohmmeter leads together, make sure it reads zero. It's possible your 0.5ohm reading is really a dead short.

Do not assume that all pins are in use.

6-7 ohms is possibly a solenoid coil, but frankly a little low for my expectations. Double check with the schematic and those colours I asked for. Smile

Wes


The wires are as follows:
3- Yellow/ red stripe
4- Black/yellow stripe
5- White
6- no wire


I connected the wires of the multimeter and put it on the 200 ohm level (audio continuity). It sometimes reads about .5-.7 ohms, but if I hold them together at the tips for a few seconds, they usually seem to reach 0.


I attached a photo of what I just tried. I connected (all via little alligator clips) the lead that connects to the B/y wire to the negative terminal of a 12v battery. I connected the lead that connects to the Y/r wire to the positive terminal of the same 12v battery. When I did this, I heard a single click from the solenoid. Not a click-click-click, but each time I completed the circuit by making the final connection (touching the green lead to the + terminal of the battery), the solenoid made a single click sound.

Another thing I tried was a continuity tester. While the circuit above was in place, after the single click happened, I used the continuity tester you see in the photo, with the alligator clip on the terminal that normally goes to the + terminal of the bike battery. I then touched the probe to the other terminal (normally going to the starter motor), but got no light. I did vet the continuity tester by touching the clip/probe on it to the 12v battery, which lit it up.

Thoughts?

test_setup_photo2.JPG
Anna Dad
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 1:19 pm
 Subject: Re: Here's the info, plus a photo of what I just tested

Hi John,
Sorry I had to bailout last night, but it was time to leave the theater.

Oops, I see I mistakenly said that the 30-amp fused 12VDC wire from the starter solenoid was Black, when infact it is White. Sorry for the confusion.

Quote:
When I did this, I heard a single click from the solenoid
Sounds like you've not only identified the coil contacts, but also demonstrated that the solenoid is operational.

Good stuff now you know these facts:
Starter works by jumping across the B and M terminals on the starter solenoid.
Starter solenoid clicks when 12VDC power is supplied to the coil contacts.

Seems like a couple more tests are called for:
Confirm that the starter solenoid contacts conduct electricity when the coil is energized. To perform this test simply connect the continuity meter across both the B and M terminals with the coil energized, if you have continuity the solenoid is most probably not the problem.
Confirm that the start button circuit is providing 12VDC to the starter solenoid when the start button is pressed. Again the test is pretty simple, use a volt meter at the starter solenoid connector (wire harness side) connected to the Red/Yellow and Black/Yellow wires, when the start button is pressed the volt meter should read 12VDC. This test is just as if you were starting the bike; battery hooked-up, ignition switch on, gear selector in neutral, or clutch lever pulled in, as all of these items are part of the starting circuit. Voltage seen at the solenoid connector will demonstrate that the start circuit is working. If no voltage is present, then it's time to look at the collection of interlock switches.
John
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 2:08 pm
 Subject: Re: Here's the info, plus a photo of what I just tested

Anna Dad wrote:
Quote:
When I did this, I heard a single click from the solenoid
Sounds like you've not only identified the coil contacts, but also demonstrated that the solenoid is operational.

Good stuff now you know these facts:
Starter works by jumping across the B and M terminals on the starter solenoid.
Starter solenoid clicks when 12VDC power is supplied to the coil contacts.

Seems like a couple more tests are called for:
Confirm that the starter solenoid contacts conduct electricity when the coil is energized. To perform this test simply connect the continuity meter across both the B and M terminals with the coil energized, if you have continuity the solenoid is most probably not the problem.
Confirm that the start button circuit is providing 12VDC to the starter solenoid when the start button is pressed. Again the test is pretty simple, use a volt meter at the starter solenoid connector (wire harness side) connected to the Red/Yellow and Black/Yellow wires, when the start button is pressed the volt meter should read 12VDC. This test is just as if you were starting the bike; battery hooked-up, ignition switch on, gear selector in neutral, or clutch lever pulled in, as all of these items are part of the starting circuit. Voltage seen at the solenoid connector will demonstrate that the start circuit is working. If no voltage is present, then it's time to look at the collection of interlock switches.



Didn't I do the first already? Another thing I tried was a continuity tester. While the circuit above was in place, after the single click happened, I used the continuity tester you see in the photo, with the alligator clip on the terminal that normally goes to the + terminal of the bike battery. I then touched the probe to the other terminal (normally going to the starter motor), but got no light. I did vet the continuity tester by touching the clip/probe on it to the 12v battery, which lit it up.

Because I didn't get a light, doesn't that mean that there is no continuity over the B/M terminals? (When the solenoid was connected to the battery)

I tried the second test, and got nothing. When the wire harness is disconnected from the starter solenoid, the dash lights go off - are we sure I should be getting 12v then (when starter button pressed?)

I just took apart the assembly with the start button / throttle cable and figured out which wires were going to the starter button (two B/r wires). At the closest 6 wire junction box, I then connected the multimeter to each of the leads that those wires terminated to, and pressed the starter button. When I pressed it, I got continuity. Same thing for the kill switch. That tells me that the wiring on both of those is good, right?

I think I need to find the actual starter relay where the B/r wires go in and the Y/g & Y/r wires come out. The service manual IDs the starter relay with a drawing of the starter solenoid, but the wires going into it are Y/r and B/y, not Y/r and Y/g. I'm missing something somewhere.

Thanks for your help, by the way!
John
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 3:07 pm
 Subject: It's not the starter button

that tested good to the first junction box from the button. Continuity when pressed, no continuity when not pressed. Guess that eliminates the starter button as a bad guy...
Anna Dad
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 3:36 pm
 Subject: Didn't I do the first already?

Yes you did, I guess I didn't follow the description as well as I might have. I'm not familiar with the continuity tester in the photo, if it is self powered (has batteries) then I guess the starter solenoid may not be operating correctly. Of course if the continuity tester relies on the circuit being tested to provide the power to light the lamp, then the test should be redone with a power source included in the circuit.

The second test would require the the connector be attached to the starter solenoid, or an alternative power source to the disconnected connector. Some volt meters have very tiny sharp probes that can pierce the insulation on a wire conductor, allowing the volt meter to read voltage in situ.

Quote:
I think I need to find the actual starter relay where the B/r wires go in and the Y/g & Y/r wires come out. The service manual IDs the starter relay with a drawing of the starter solenoid, but the wires going into it are Y/r and B/y, not Y/r and Y/g. I'm missing something somewhere.

I think the relay you are looking for is referred to as the starter circuit relay, and can be found in the junction box, take a look at the schematic for the Ninja, I think you'll see the relay in the upper right hand corner.

Perhaps this schematic of the start and ignition circuit will be helpful.
Anna Dad
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 4:08 pm
 Subject: Where's the schematic?

I'm not sure why, but I seem to be having some difficulty in uploading the schematic.

It's a .jpg (800x480, 72.1kB), located on my hard drive. The address location appears in the "Upload Image:" box, but does not show up in the Preview window nor does it show up when I use Submit.

I've read the faq's, still don't know what the issue is, sorry.
John
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 4:33 pm
 Subject: Re: Didn't I do the first already?

Anna Dad wrote:
Yes you did, I guess I didn't follow the description as well as I might have. I'm not familiar with the continuity tester in the photo, if it is self powered (has batteries) then I guess the starter solenoid may not be operating correctly. Of course if the continuity tester relies on the circuit being tested to provide the power to light the lamp, then the test should be redone with a power source included in the circuit.

The second test would require the the connector be attached to the starter solenoid, or an alternative power source to the disconnected connector. Some volt meters have very tiny sharp probes that can pierce the insulation on a wire conductor, allowing the volt meter to read voltage in situ.


The one in the photo does not have batteries, it requires a power source in the circuit. I thought that there would be power between the B/M terminals, but now that you explain it, I guess there is no reason for there to be power there, just because power is being applied to the solenoid.



Anna Dad wrote:

Quote:
I think I need to find the actual starter relay where the B/r wires go in and the Y/g & Y/r wires come out. The service manual IDs the starter relay with a drawing of the starter solenoid, but the wires going into it are Y/r and B/y, not Y/r and Y/g. I'm missing something somewhere.

I think the relay you are looking for is referred to as the starter circuit relay, and can be found in the junction box, take a look at the schematic for the Ninja, I think you'll see the relay in the upper right hand corner.

Perhaps this schematic of the start and ignition circuit will be helpful.


So I broke out the service manual supplement and finally figured out what you just told me - that the starter circuit relay is in the junction box. I opened up the junction box to take a look at it, but all I could really see was a circuit board - I can't pry that out of there, can I?



Now, for some good news:

Emily got the other bike up and running, so we had some known-goods to test against. Yellow bike is what I've been working on, Green bike is the one Emily just got up and running.

I swapped the solenoid from yellow bike into green bike, and green bike still worked just fine. The solenoid that was in the green bike was put in the yellow bike and the yellow bike still wouldn't start. That kind of rules out the solenoid being bad, in my mind.

The junction box (yes the entire thing) was next. Swapped them in the same manner, same result.

After taking apart the starter button assembly, I was able to test the circuit continuity of the R/b wires from the starter button - no problems there, loud clear audio telling me it worked, down to the first six wire junction box.

Next up was testing from that six wire junction box to the main junction box. In this case, the test was for the lead that the B/R wire from the starter button connected to, down to the lead for the B/r wire entering the main junction box. Have continuity there as well.

So that's where I'm at. I've tested good from the starter button through the junction box, and the solenoid itself. Now I need to figure out how to test from the Y/g wire coming out of the main junction box (from the starter relay circuit inside) to the clutch/starter lockout switch. Guess I need to get ready to take that apart now.

Thanks again for helping, I do appreciate it.
John
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 4:39 pm
 Subject: Re: Where's the schematic?

Anna Dad wrote:
I'm not sure why, but I seem to be having some difficulty in uploading the schematic.

It's a .jpg (800x480, 72.1kB), located on my hard drive. The address location appears in the "Upload Image:" box, but does not show up in the Preview window nor does it show up when I use Submit.

I've read the faq's, still don't know what the issue is, sorry.


Hmm. You're not over the size limit, so it should upload. Images usually don't show up in the preview window here, but they do usually show up after you've submitted them. No error of any kind when you try? I just PMed you my email address if you want to just email it to me and I'll give it a shot.
Anna Dad
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:21 pm
 Subject: Wait, before you disassemble the junction box

John,
Before you tackle the junction box, take a look at the schematic I just sent to you.
I've read many posts here on the forum referencing starting problems, the common factor in most of these threads often boiled down to one of the interlock switches not behaving correctly. As I was drawing the starter & ignition schematic for the Ninja 250, I puzzled over the interlock circuitry as it seemed awkward and confusing. However with the completion of the drawing, I think I understand the design and execution of the circuit. I mentioned in an earlier post a procedure that I think offers a pretty simple trouble-shooting test to rule out the often problematic interlock switches.

Quote:
As all three of these interlock switches connect at various times the same Green/Black wire from the ignition module to ground, perhaps a simple trouble-shooting method would be to temporarily connect this Green/Black wire to ground, effectively by-passing any faulty interlock switches. A word of caution here, I have not attempted this trouble-shooting method (as the need has not yet come up), everything I've described here can be verified by studying the existing wiring schematics available in the FAQ's.


I think this is very similar (perhaps copied) from the notes on the schematic I just sent you. I'm sure you can find a convenient location (side stand switch) to use one of your alligator clip leads, and connect the Green/Black wire to a good chassis ground. If the motorcycle start circuit works, than you should start to examine those three interlock switches for faulty behavior, else it might be time to look at the Yellow/Green wire from the clutch lever switch back to the junction box.

Upon review of the above statement, I think I want to reconsider grounding the Black/Green wire as it does not bypass a faulty clutch lever wire connection (no harm if you've already tried it). Instead, try connecting the Yellow/Green wire (clutch lever switch to junction box) temporarily to ground, I think this is a better test as it bypasses both the ignition interlock, and the start interlock, providing the ground to the start relay.

Okay, I think that's it.
Wes
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:23 pm
 Subject: Re: Wait, before you disassemble the junction box

> I've read many posts here on the forum referencing starting problems, the
> common factor in most of these threads often boiled down to one of the interlock
> switches not behaving correctly

You can say that again. I have the *strangest* problem with mine -- every now and then, normally when it's raining, the clutch interlock switch inverts state!

I still can't explain that, but I does happen.

So, yesterday, I had the clutch pull and wanted to start the bike; wouldn't start, so I let the clutch out and it fired right up.

Wierdest thing I ever saw. It's been doing it on and off for five years now.

Wes
John
Post Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 5:41 pm
 Subject: Oh man is this funny (found the problem)

So I wish you guys had posted that earlier. I've just come inside from being out tracing all kinds of wiring with the multimeter for continuity. The wires out of the starter and junction box were all good, then I got up to the second half of the wiring (after the 6 wire junction) heading to the clutch / starter lockout switch. As I was taking apart the assembly on the left handlebar, I noticed something that made me laugh. I laughed even more when I tested it to be sure and found out it was the issue. It was the little nub that is pushed into the assembly when you release the cutch - it was bent and worn down, I can guess only due to a bent clutch lever rubbing it the wrong way. That said, I was puzzled over why it seemed to be working the opposite of how I understood it (starter button worked when I pressed in the nub with my thumb), until I came in to post my "figured it out" post, and saw these two latest posts, including the clutch interlock switch inverting state.

How goofy is that.

I'm going to take a photo and put it up in the thread, but other than that, I think I'm good. Guess I didn't need M to overnight me a starter relay after all.. Wink Oh well I'll just pocket it and bring it down to DG with me.

Thanks for all your help, guys. It made a difference.
Wes
Post Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 6:34 pm
 Subject: HAAA! Glad you got it working!~

John
Post Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 7:42 pm
 Subject: ok here's your photo, everyone.

You can't really tell from the photo, but the button that is held in by the clutch lever (or supposed to be held in, in this case), which normally looks like this:

=====
=====


was worn away on the top half so it really looked like this:

===
=====


due to the clutch lever just constantly pressing into the top half of the button and rubbing it away.


Now all I think I need to do is shim the lever so it stays down and keeps the button fully pressed in when there is no force on the lever. Might have to swap our the button or add something to it to make it whole again as well.


Thanks for your help, people.

clutch_b2.jpg
John
Post Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:01 pm
 Subject: and last photo.. closeup

with the button pressed up and the lever pressed down so they kinda align. you can somewhat see the wear on the button in this photo if you look closely
clutch_c3.jpg
Bokonon
Post Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 8:24 pm
 Subject: :rofl: :mrgreen: :cool: :grin: :razz: :rofl:

rats4ever
Post Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:10 pm
 Subject: :thumbup: LMAO...

Wes
Post Posted: Thu May 28, 2009 11:23 pm
 Subject: Is that an OEM lever?

John
Post Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 8:43 am
 Subject: I think so, could be aftermarket, not sure..; notice something interesting?

Wes
Post Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:35 am
 Subject: excessive vertical play

John
Post Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:04 am
 Subject: It's usually filled with yellow stuff that you put on toast.

http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?p=375836

One of my favorites.



That's what I'm planning on doing in order to reduce the vertical play.. first I will need to verify I've chosen a finger and thumb on the same hand, though. Wink



Your left hand will have four "same" fingers pointing up and the thumb pointing away from them, like this: |||L.





Bokonon, you have archived this in the N250RC Posts Hall of Fame, right? What? The N250RCPHL doesn't exist yet? Get on it!
Bokonon
Post Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 10:45 am
 Subject: I'll start a classic post thread later. That was vintage Wes :rofl:

John
Post Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:29 am
 Subject: If it's a thread it will get lost.. should be a FAQ entry

FAQ entry with the post, and a link to the original post/thread.

If you meant a submissions thread, by all means!
Bokonon
Post Posted: Fri May 29, 2009 3:52 pm
 Subject: Yes, that is what I meant.

John
Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 6:32 pm
 Subject: Finally got around to fixing this 2.5 months later

I've been putting up with this until I had some free time, which I had today. I ended up shimming it with the cap of a soy milk carton, because the first shim that I made out of a plastic lid was too thin. There was still a lot of vertical play. The cap was thicker and worked much better. The vertical play is now almost entirely eliminated and the lever has much better contact with the clutch kill switch button, as it is now forced down into place.

Bokonon, for folks with significant vertical play, where a margarine lid just won't cut the mustard.. can you add using a soy milk cap here:
http://faq.ninja250.org/wiki/My_clutch_lever_rattles_when_I_rev_the_engine

?

Wink

I'm guessing any 2-liter soda bottle cap or milk carton cap would work as well.


And credit where it's due - couldn't have done it without the step by step instructions here:
http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?p=375836

silk-soy-milk.jpg
teknokruncher
Post Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 8:13 pm
 Subject: Re: Finally got around to fixing this 2.5 months later

yay excellent!
btw - i think i like paynes post the best on that thread: http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?p=375919#375919

sounds like the fix was less painful than the diagnosis

Smile
emily
runeknight95
Post Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2010 7:31 pm
 Subject: Re: I'm guessing it's an electrical issue.. [starter relay / solenoid / ??]

I was having the same issues and then I read this, I went to look at the clutch lever and the wire harness was loose at the position near the horn, bike started after snapped back into place. So much time over nothing Wry but thanks for making me look there Smile

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