 Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:48 pm Subject: I KNOW this is in the FAQs, but ... |
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| I am having hearburn over this question of Octane rating. On page 29 of the manual for my 2006, it states "Use ...unleaded gasoline with a minimum Antiknock Index of 87." (I highlighted the "minimum".) It also states "If engine 'knocking' or 'pinging' occurs, use ... higher octane ..."
There have been comments that High Octane may burn your valves --- MAYBE IF YOUR DUMB ENOUGH TO USE AVGAS! Or someone stated that it will "degrade performance" --- ON WHAT PLANET?! (I'm sorry to be yelling like that.) Look. High performance engines typically need high performance fuel. At 12.4 compression, the Ninja has a high performance engine. It is designed so it can function on 87 Octane MINIMUM. So can a Honda Odyssey but they even recommend 91 Octane "for best performance," for crying out loud! From personal experience, mine "seems" to run smoother and quieter using 91 and so that's what I started using. I may try the mid-grade now that prices have gone OVER $3.00!  Just my FWIW. |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:51 pm Subject: Re: I KNOW this is in the FAQs, but ... |
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Oh, and I forgot to mention. The "Odyssey" is a MINIVAN!  |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:17 pm Subject: Re: I KNOW this is in the FAQs, but ... |
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| Not just in the FAQ but a lot of posts about it as well. I'm not a wrench or gear head so I can't regurgitate what was mentioned.
If you get the perception it runs better then I say go with it. Personally from what I've read on the forum it's just waisting money and not really improving any performance. Actually I think I've read that it might actually degrade it. Good luck! |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 6:22 pm Subject: Re: I KNOW this is in the FAQs, but ... |
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| Here's a few links you might want to read through. This was just a quick search with about 20 pages worth of responses:
http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?t=52503&highlight=octane http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?t=51968&highlight=octane http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?t=50911&highlight=octane http://forums.ninja250.org/viewtopic.php?t=50037&highlight=octane |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:31 pm Subject: Right here is your problem... |
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You just made an assumption that isn't true. Motorcycle engnines != Car engines, there's a world of difference. But, use whatever the hell you want... it's your bike and your money. But don't, for fucks sake, try to convince anyone that knows Anything about motorcycles/fuels of what you think (unless you want to get into an argument and be thought a fool). And the reason your engine feels smoother/quieter on higher octane fuel is because the fuel is less volitile (after all, octane is a rating to measure the resistance of detonation/preignition), so there's less "combustion" process going on (which is where the "less performance" comes into play). It's measureable on a dyno, so go see for yourself. But the EX250 motor is definatally NOT a high performance engine. Why would it be? The bike is no where near a high perofmrnace bike (and never has been), it's a sporty looking standard. Brian |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:42 pm Subject: Raging N00b, LOL! |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:49 pm Subject: Re: I KNOW this is in the FAQs, but ... |
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It also has a small cylinder and revs way higher than your average car engine. Did you know those impact octane requirements? Did you know that liquid cooled bikes require a lower octane than air/oil cooled bikes because the block temperature can be maintained more evenly? That's one reason a lower compression Harley needs mid-grade. Do more research. Educate yourself. |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:56 pm Subject: lol!; :rofl: |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:59 pm Subject: I paid $3.25 per gallon at Costco yesterday for 87 octane. Eesh. |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:22 pm Subject: Use whatever you want |
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| Higher octane gas just burns less completely in the 250, so you get less energy out of it, and it costs you more. Hardly a bargain in my book.
The only reason to go up in octane is if you get pinging or knocking. That's also an indication (on this bike) that it's time to fix your engine. However, if you want to run 91 octane, go for it. You won't hurt anything except your wallet. |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:39 pm Subject: Re: I KNOW this is in the FAQs, but ... |
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A Honda Odyssey has computerized timing adjustment, the 250R does not. Big difference. |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:42 pm Subject: Re: Have any 87 vs premium dyno charts? |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:50 pm Subject: I do, and have been looking for them........ |
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| but am afraid that it is now an "i did", as a lot of the stuff from that area of my life (2000) is missing. But while I was at MMI in Phoenix, I took a Dyno Operaters class and put my 87 VFR on a handful of times. One of the days I was testing Specifically running 87 and 92 octane fuels. There was a 3hp loss by going to 92 octane (from 92hp to 89hp). This was from the average of several runs (4 or 5, with a 20 mile ride between the 92 and filling with 87 to make sure there was no left-over 92).
Brian |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:57 pm Subject: Re: Right here is your problem... |
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| OK... yup, I am NOOB... so help me out here, Brian, because I'm confused. I thought it was "compression" that TENDS to bring pre-ignition and that higher Octane gasoline (like 89 or 91) could delay or prevent that. Even my manual talks about "Ping" and "Knock" and using higher octane to prevent that. But I'm sure willing to listen.
One other thing: "high performance." You are ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that the littlest Ninja is NOT a high performance bike, but pulling 28hp out of about a 15-cu.in. engine sure sounds like pretty "strong performance." The other 250cc bikes barely do half that from their engines. Educate me ... but please don't cuss at me. Thanks! |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:13 pm Subject: I trust the engineers (particularly filtered through lawyers) |
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| The engineers or tech writers who wrote the MOM said 87 octane, and that even passed the lawyers without comment. You know, if it gets to you, it's going to be a safe choice.
So, that aside.... My (very limited) understanding is that high compression is not the only factor in preignition -- displacement is also very important. I had the exact same reaction the first time I put the compression ratio and recommended octane facts next to each other in my brain. Perhaps there's some critical mass which is reached in a bigger piston, or it's a heat thing, or who knows what. What I do know is that I've successfully run 87 octane in a Ninja 250 for about 30,000 miles. No pinging, no knocking, despite my portly weight and running in hilly country. |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:18 pm Subject: Re: Use whatever you want |
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| I just went back to the FAQs and your answer was the simplest. Basically, if the bike is running good on Regular, why spend the money on Premium? You are absolutely right. Thanks. I apologize if I raised the anger of others on this board, but sometimes the question needs to be asked. | |
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:20 pm Subject: Re: I KNOW this is in the FAQs, but ... |
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| You are right. The computer in the Odyssey senses when 87 is used and reduces performance. Our Ninja can't do that. Still - like I said to Ian, if it runs why spend the extra money. | |
| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:25 pm Subject: Re: I trust the engineers (particularly filtered through lawyers) |
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Ian, I said "thanks" up above. I repeat myself, here. I don't have the miles on mine that you have. And she runs fine on 87, it's just that she seemed to start easier, idle smoother and run quieter when I fed her Premium. I'm going to do a non-scientific experiment over the summer about this, and I WILL keep records!  |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:41 pm Subject: Cool |
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| Report back what you find, there will be a lot of interest in the results you record. To make it a good scientific study, track the following information as best you can:
* average ambient temperature * load weight (you plus bags) within 10 lbs or so * noticeable wind * riding style (aggressive, gentle, etc.) * riding conditions (city, freeway, country road, etc.) * note any variations in frontal area (ie, large bags, changes to fairing, etc.) * octane, efficiency, etc. Make sure you keep your tires pumped up within 1 psi of whatever you decide is good for the duration of the test, to eliminate it as a variable. Also find a very consistent way to fill the tank to the same point -- I put it on the centerstand, and fill until the gas is just touching the filler neck lip. Adjust the valves and sync the carbs at the beginning of the test, and keep the carbs sync'd as best you can. Make sure the chain is properly adjusted, and religiously follow the lubrication and adjustment schedule. All these things (I'm sure you understand) are to help us get the number of variables as small as possible. |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:47 pm Subject: I run 93 in everything I drive. :P |
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| Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:35 pm Subject: In a nutshell, from MY personal experience |
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| Premium costs more.
The bike doesn't seem to produce as much HP using premium. The bike needs fuel ups more frequently. Less power, loer mpg, higher cost. I've done it, unless I get some super crappy gas somewhere and the engine starts pinging or knocking, I won't be going back. |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:08 am Subject: Re: Cool |
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YOW! Can't I just SWAG it?! 
I know - I know! To be a "real" test I would have to do all that. You and I both know that ain't a'happin'n! I'm jus'gonna ride!
I be done an' goin' home! |
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| Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:50 am Subject: Maybe I get this. |
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| Your comment forced me to do some online digging. Now, let me tell you what I found, and what I THINK I understand.
There are TWO things happening in the 250 engine: 1. high compression, which CAN lead to pre-detonation 2. short-stroke, high-RPM engine; which needs a "fast burn" fuel If I'm right, then we really NEED to use 87-octane in the Ninja to allow complete combustion in this fast turning engine. That is, UNLESS there's knock or ping, but that could be caused by other stuff (lean burn, internal carbon deposit, etc.) besides the Octane. Am I on the right track, here? Maybe my "smoother running engine" has more to do with break-in than fuel, and I'm going to see what happens when I change back. I *MAY* still "waste my money" if it doesn't pan out, but that's a story for later. I still think you owe us an apology for cussing. That just cheapens the board. |
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 5:12 am Subject: Re: Use whatever you want |
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I would not exactly say that running 91 octane will not hurt anything besides your wallet. Running excessive octane can lead to additional carbon build-up and deposits. Sometimes, these deposits become so severe, that you have to run the high octane to prevent pinging. |
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 1:56 pm Subject: Higher octane will help in certain situations - FAQ is not gospel |
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I disagree that the bike vs. car engines are different - how?? A liquid cooled 4 stroke internal combustion engine is what it is. I also disagree that the EX250 motor is NOT a high performance engine - what do you consider high performance? Is a CBR600RR or an R6 high performance enough? Have you compared the compression ratios and rev limits to those? The EX250 engine IS a high performance engine, higher performance than say a Honda ST1300 V4 which redlines at 6500rpm. I do agree that higher octane generally won't help without fuel injection and a knock sensor because there's nothing retarding or advancing the ignition timing to take advantage of the octane. However, if it were FI the higher octane would definitely help. For e.g. many car manuals state that you must use higher octane when towing, why? I would guess it's because they tested and found that while under normal circumstances the engine performs adequately under a high load condition the higher octane will keeping the engine running cooler, prevent pre-ignition, detonation and provide slight power advantage. I would say if you're doing two up riding on your EX250 in the 100deg summer heat the higher octane will help. The FAQ is not Gospel guys. |
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| Posted: Fri May 11, 2012 2:27 pm Subject: The FAQ may not be gospel... |
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| But it was put together by a bunch of people who have a lot of experience on the Ninja 250.
You can, of course, run high-octane in your bike if you want. What we're trying to say is that it doesn't provide any real benefit, and does provide a slight decrease in performance. If you dig that, cool. It's your money. Whether or not the EX250 engine is high-performance is a debatable point, but I think you'll find that in the motorcycle world, its HP/liter ratio isn't very high, and I suspect that's what Brian was referring to. (For example: the CBR600RR, at 105 HP, has 175.3 HP/liter, while the Ninja 250, at 28, has 112.4, or just 64% of the performance of a CBR600RR. By contrast, a Honda Civic, at 140 HP and 1.8 liters, is producing only 77.8 HP/liter.) The fact is that the factory recommends low octane gas right there in the manual. They generally err on the side of safety, so Kawasaki and its lawyers think that 87 octane is perfectly safe for this engine. |
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